View Poll Results: For HD cinema (BLURAY) - which is the ultimate screen for your home under $7000?!?

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  • Pioneer Kuro ELITE 50 inch (2009)

    2 6.25%
  • Panasonic G10 60 inch (or 50!) HD plasma

    4 12.50%
  • SONY BRAVIA XBR series 8 LED backlit LCD 55 inch (or 46!)

    7 21.88%
  • SONY Z BRAVIA series (flouro backlit) 200 HZ

    7 21.88%
  • Samsung Series 8 edge lit LED LCD 55 inch (or 46)

    10 31.25%
  • Samsung Series 8 HD plasmas (60 or 50) inch

    2 6.25%
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Thread: Snick's Hi-def Panel Thread - all the juice..

  1. #1
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    Default Snick's Hi-def Panel Thread - all the juice..

    Hi DEF panel mayhem!!

    Ok well this was inevitable - and I will attempt to post here as much as possible - but I have a passion for screen technology and I'd like this thread to be about discussions about LCD, Plasma and other screen tech like projectors etc..

    Ive even included a poll - you may also post up your setup pics - ie the screen.

    I am currently torn between the merits of the latest LED backlit screens from Samsung and Sony (of course) vs Samsung, Pioneer Kuro and Panasonic (+ LG) HD plasmas and the relative merits of each... as the madmin guys will tell you I drive them mad with discussions about this tech .. but I find it really interesting so LOL

    Post up reviews of various products and links to such as well if you like. Im reasonably knowledgable in the subject area as well so any questions - try me.

    So - its really a very tricky time to buy or rate screens - there are myriads of the things out there and each will suit different people due to there needs..

    LCD vs PLasma vs Projector
    Size - 32 vs 40 vs 46 vs 50 (plasma) vs 52 (lcd) vs 55 (LCD) vs 60 (plasma)!!
    LED backlit LCD vs plasma for black levels and contrast

    My research shows that the majority of reviews place the following screens in order of "Awesomeness" (and price probably LOL)

    At the same screen size - say 50 inch (plasma) and 46 inch LCD

    1) Pioneer Kuro ELITE 2009 HD plasma screens - almost universally declared the pinnacle of HDTV flat panels - due to insane black levels and natural colour reproduction - but note Pioneer do NOT make these anymore!! yes you heard correct ... and the 50 inch top of the range elite panel is RRP $7000 - you could buy 2 Panasonic G10's with that

    2) Panasonic Plasmas - almost Kuro like blacks but not quite there - Pionner Kuro's are now discontinued and rumours are that Pioneer staff have gone to Panasonic... to make Panny Kuro's?? The G10 and V10 series are very nice.. and cheaper than an LCD for the same size .. but no top-critic seems confident to rate them higher than a KURO.

    3) Samsung LED backlit LCD panels... appear to come in higher rated generally than the SONY Bravia's ... BUUUUUTTTT - the newer series 8 ones have LED edge-lit LCD panels - which are NOT locally-dimmed - such as the older Series 9 samsungs... WHY ?!?! Who knows - maybe cheaper to produce!?!?

    4) Sony BRAVIA LED backlit XBR8 models ... local LED dimming using 3 colour RGB (red + green + blue) backlighting ...

    NOTE - I prefer the Bravia's but more critics seem to put the Samsungs as higher rated - see CNET for example - but this might be due to the higher shelf price of the XBR8 BRAVIA's not their PQ ...(picture quality)

    - The rest are much of a much-ness in terms of quality...

    But of note

    > Sony Z series LCD - 200 Hz
    > SONY W series - good price + good all-round value for a great screen!!
    > Hitachi LCD!!
    > Sharp LCD - great screens
    > LG plasma - cheaper but a lot of bang for ya buck!!

    Here is a list of

    "drawbacks" to LCD technology

    from Wikipedia [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_display[/ame]

    - LCD technology still has a few drawbacks in comparison to some other display technologies:

    While CRTs are capable of displaying multiple video resolutions without introducing artifacts, LCDs produce crisp images only in their native resolution and, sometimes, fractions of that native resolution. Attempting to run LCD panels at non-native resolutions usually results in the panel scaling the image, which introduces blurriness or "blockiness" and is susceptible in general to multiple kinds of HDTV blur. Many LCDs are incapable of displaying very low resolution screen modes (such as 320x200) due to these scaling limitations.

    Some types of LCD displays have a more limited color resolution than advertised,[citation needed] and must use spatial and/or temporal dithering to increase the apparent color depth. This can cause a shimmering effect with some types of displays which can be distracting for some users.

    Although LCDs typically have more vibrant images and better "real-world" contrast ratios (the ability to maintain contrast and variation of color in bright environments) than CRTs, they do have lower contrast ratios than CRTs in terms of how deep their blacks are. A contrast ratio is the difference between a completely on (white) and off (black) pixel, and LCDs can have "backlight bleed" where light (usually seen around corners of the screen) leaks out and turns black into gray or even a bluish / purple tint with TN-film based displays. However, as of 2009, the very best LCD TVs that do not use LED backlighting can achieve a dynamic contrast ratio of 150,000:1.

    LCDs typically have longer response times than their plasma and CRT counterparts, especially older displays, creating visible ghosting when images rapidly change. For example, when moving the mouse quickly on an LCD, multiple cursors can sometimes be seen. **See also: CRT phosphor persistence

    LCDs appear to exhibit motion blur as the human eye follows moving objects, where some CRT screens do not. This is because an individual LCD pixel is constantly visible for the entire duration of a frame (typically 16.7ms), whereas a CRT pixel is lit for only a fraction of a microsecond once per frame as the electron beam scans past it. The means that even on a hypothetical LCD panel with a response time of zero, a panning image will appear to have motion blur whereas a panning image on a CRT monitor will not. This is caused by the movement of the eye during the time the frame is visible[citation needed]. Blur can be reduced by increasing the refresh rate to a multiple of the frame rate (e.g. 120 or 240 Hz) and employing various image processing techniques. Blur or ghosting can be partially "corrected" using software techniques that present a negative image of the blur to compensate by canceling-out the predicted blur. For example, if a ghost image is caused by a left-over spot that is 5% brighter than normal, the software will draw a negative of the ghost image that is minus-5 percent, and the result will add up to the expected value (n + 5 - 5 = n). However, this technique requires a processing delay, which can be[citation needed] problematic for fast-action video-game usage. Some monitors even come with a "gaming mode" to turn off anti-ghosting when needed.

    See also: CRT phosphor persistence

    Two IBM ThinkPad laptop screens viewed at an extreme angle. LCD panels using TN tend to have a limited viewing angle relative to CRT and plasma displays. This reduces the number of people able to conveniently view the same image – laptop screens are a prime example. Usually when looking below the screen, it gets much darker; looking from above makes it look lighter. This distorts the colors and makes cheap LCD monitors unsuitable for work where color is important, such as in graphic design work, as the colors change when the eyes are moved slightly up or down, or when looking either at the top of the screen or at the bottom from a fixed position. Many displays based on thin film transistor variants such as IPS, MVA, or PVA, have much improved viewing angles; typically the color only becomes a little brighter when viewing at extreme angles, though much of the improvements on viewing angles has been done[citation needed] on lateral angles, not on vertical ones.

    Consumer LCD monitors tend to be more fragile than their CRT counterparts. The screen may be especially vulnerable due to the lack of a thick glass shield as in CRT monitors.[clarification needed]

    Dead pixels can occur when the screen is damaged or pressure is put upon the screen; few manufacturers replace screens with dead pixels under warranty.
    Horizontal and/or vertical banding is a problem in some LCD screens. This flaw occurs as part of the manufacturing process, and cannot be repaired (short of total replacement of the screen). Banding can vary substantially even among LCD screens of the same make and model. The degree is determined by the manufacturer's quality control procedures.
    The cold cathode fluorescent lamps typically used for back-lights in LCD screens contain mercury, a toxic substance, though LED-backlit LCD screens are mercury-free.
    Pattern based flicker, caused by imperfect voltage balance.[27]] - one or more of the tests will usually demonstrate objectionable flicker, which can also show up if the problem pattern occurs as a hatching pattern over a significant area.

    Pros/cons of Plasma

    Advantages

    Slim profile

    Lighter and less bulky than rear-projection televisions

    Achieves better color reproduction than LCDs (68 billion (236) versus 16.7 million (224)) [14][15]

    Produces deep, true blacks allowing for superior contrast ratios (up to 1:1,000,000) [14][15][16]

    Far wider viewing angles than those of LCD (up to 178), images do not suffer from degradation at high angles unlike LCD's [14][15]

    Faster response times (upto 0.001 milliseconds) make Plasmas ideal for fast motion video (films or sports viewing) [14][15][16]

    Can be wall mounted

    Disadvantages

    Susceptible to Screen burn-in and image retention (however newer models have built-in technologies to prevent this such as pixel shifting) [17][16]

    Phosphors lose luminosity over time, resulting in gradual decline of absolute image brightness (newer models are less susceptible to this, having lifespans exceeding 60,000 hours, far
    longer than older CRT technology) [4][17][16]

    Susceptible to "large area flicker"[18]

    Generally do not come in smaller sizes than 32 inches [14][15]

    Susceptible to reflection glare in bright rooms

    Heavier than LCD due to the requirement of a glass screen to hold the gases

    Damage to the glass screen can be permanent and far more difficult to repair than an LCD
    Last edited by Snickersma; 25-07-2009 at 10:49 AM.

  2. #2
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    Pioneer KURO plasma



    Panny plasma



    Samsung LED LCD



    SONY XBR8 55 inch

    Last edited by Snickersma; 24-07-2009 at 10:11 PM.

  3. #3
    AUF Friend - My Best Friend Girlfriends Sister (500+) Blair_Au's Avatar
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    i hav a 50 inch Samsung Plasma, but 4 some reason its like theres a lag when i play the ps3 on it. even when i switch it to game mode in settings







  4. #4
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    This is a reported advantage of LCD I think - less lag in games .. something to do with the ability of an LCD to produce a sharper picture quicker than plasma i think!

  5. #5
    AUF Friend - My Best Friend Girlfriends Sister (500+) karnage001's Avatar
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    ive got a 50" samsung plasma and i dont really experience the lag, the picture quality on it was mind blowing when i first watched casino royale on it on blu ray.

    TVs have really come a long way within the last 5 years or so

  6. #6
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    Yes they have and its sooooo tricky to work out which way to go between plasma and LCD ... each week I change my mind.

    ATM Im a plasma fan and would buy a KURO .. as me next week and I'd be keen on a Sammy series 8 LCD! .. then again the SONY XBR's ... droool LOL.. there are lots of emerging tech in both sides...

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    Super Moderator AUF Full Member - The Post Whore of Babble-Ion (4000+) themonkeysmiles's Avatar
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    That Samsung LED thing looks sexy Snicks...I was wandering around when I should have been working the other day and had a look at the LED jobbies...man I really wanna get one of those but my budget just could not take the hit right now...

    I have my ps3 and pc running through a samsung 81cm lcd....Its really a great monitor I reckon...huge as I am sitting maybe 4 feet from it in a recliner...sweet setup really...

    iphone pic...pretty shabby

    To be honest I dont rellay know much about it all....but I am seeing a bit of talk about 200Hz Tvs and will probably wait until they are run of the mill before upgrading...Tv in the loungeroom is a 106cm LG LCD...its what we watch most of the movies on...in the bedroom is my old 60gig Ps3 running thru the same tv setup as the piccy...me and the missus watch the blurays in there...no kids allowed....
    Last edited by themonkeysmiles; 24-07-2009 at 10:43 PM.

    WaRD special consultant..

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    AUF Friend - My Best Friend Girlfriends Sister (500+) Blair_Au's Avatar
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    mabye i might try HDMI cable. it might help.







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    Super Moderator AUF Full Member - The Post Whore of Babble-Ion (4000+) themonkeysmiles's Avatar
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    Its the only way to go Blair....

    WaRD special consultant..

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    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    MMM well the thing is with LCD especially the newer LED backlit models is their brightness .. in shops they are a LOT brighter than plasmas and so catch your eye and look better ... but from what I have read (which is a lot on this subject) - plasmas are better for lower lit rooms (or lights off for example) for their black levels (they can display black a lot better) - but LCD's are still way brighter and have more POP to them.

    Perceived brightness in a very light room is one reason LCD might better for a gamer but not subtle enough for a cinema-buff who is prickly about perfect skin tones and natural colour reproduction. People in shops seem to gather around LCD panels like moths My problem is I fall somewhere in between.

    Oh .. and LCD' usually have plastic non-reflective matte screens as opposed to glossy glass plasma screens.

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    Super Moderator AUF Full Member - The Post Whore of Babble-Ion (4000+) themonkeysmiles's Avatar
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    Yeah...us consumers are like moths to the flame when it comes to bright and shiny images that are moving...

    I chose not to go with the plasma when I was looking simply because of the orientation of the house...and the relative position of the tv and a large window...The glare from a plasma type screen from the sun would have been horrible...keep in mind I am in queensland..

    They looked to have an obviously smoother and richer...can I say warmer...picture quality...

    WaRD special consultant..

  12. #12
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    Yeah I'd agree there - plasma's have a warmer more smoother colour pallette - LCD's are sharper and brighter - probably better for gaming.

    Although its very subjective. I find plasma's look a bit washed out and fuzzy (not as sharp) in stores - but most reports Ive read seem to say that in a normal viewing conditions - a semi-lit room plasmas are just as bright.

    I do remember seeing the KURO elite plasma at a Clive Peters shop a few months ago and being totally blown away by the richness and accuracy of the colours compared to a nearby Bravia.

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    shit sweet setup smiling monkey :O


  14. #14
    AUF Leader (Retired) AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) YNWA01's Avatar
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    I'm getting the Pana Plasma G series 46" when our house rennos are completed and I know we have the spare $$$$$.

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    AUF Friend - My Best Friend Girlfriends Sister (500+) bostonkaos's Avatar
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    I have two LCD's my first was a 32" Panasonic viera 1080p def noticed how much better it was compared to the old 60kg (sarcastic ) thing I had, I bought that when they came on to the market a few years ago still goes great.
    Then after asking abit of advice I believe it was from snicks actually I bought another tv a 46" Bravia w100 motion flow. Motionflow never affected my cod experience must turn itself off when a game is on dont know. Got a couple mates who have plasma's and their got nothing on the LCD's the colour is so dim and the game seems alot less sharp picture wise. When I bought my second one they had the new series out of Bravia same size screen but was $1000 more cause i was buying the surround sound setup as well paying cash so they did anything I asked. They hooked up a PS3 to both and to be honest I didn't notice a diffrence between the new sony and the one I bought. I personnally would go a LCD over a plasma anyday.

  16. #16
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    MM think it was ... the W series is a very nice value point for a LCD .. solid PQ, great colours, Bravia Engine 2 (now BE3 i think) etc etc - the next step up is either a 200 hz Z series or the (at the time) ludicrously expensive XBR models.

    Quote Originally Posted by YNWA01 View Post
    I'm getting the Pana Plasma G series 46" when our house rennos are completed and I know we have the spare $$$$$.
    You mean the 50 inch G10 Pana plasma YN?? Thats the one I pictured above. That is indeed one sweet machine dude - and its not exxy either - they go at about 3500 at the moment with free Wii thrown in ...

    In fact they are 15% off at JB this weekend - so thats close to 3000 for a 50 inch DH plasma with great reviews etc + a free Wii.. thats value my friend!
    Last edited by Snickersma; 25-07-2009 at 09:43 AM.

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    AUF Leader (Retired) AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) YNWA01's Avatar
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    Nope they do a 46" too mate, the 50" is just a bit big for they space I have allocated, the 46" seems about right and is a few $$$ cheaper too..

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    i have the samsung lcd 55inch
    best lcd tv i have ever had/ used
    the picture is always crisp, audio is great
    i think it has 3 hdmi ports you you can have ps3 and other shit pluged in as well

  19. #19
    Great Balls! AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Chiips's Avatar
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    Those new Sammy edge lit LCDs are thin AS!! Great if hanging on wall, and their inputs point in the same plane as telly (so easier to hide cords if hanging on wall).

    I'm too chicken to go Plasma due to burn in, but isn't it almost non-existent now in new plasmas??

    If I had to pick one today, it'll be the Samsung 8 or 9 series (even 6 or 7 edge lit ones are very good). They are offering a free 22inch LCD with Sammys until middle of July.

    One thing I have read bout edge lit technology though (some reports only) is the possibility of... "edge bleeding"? in the 4 corners when say watching a film with black bars top and bottom. But not many have reported this, otherwise seems to be a great panel.

    I'm a bit biased, cos I have a 46" Sammy Full HD atm

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    Great Balls! AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Chiips's Avatar
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    Ok, couldn't find a pict i wanted, but in reference to above, see how the contrast seem to be slightly different in the corners? sorta what i meant... (sorry big pic)


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    sumsung series 8 LED lcd.


    /close thread
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  22. #22
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    Yep its called Backlight bleeding and is common on LCD's .. my original V series bravia is shocking with that..

    http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides...t-bleeding.php

    Just added a whole list of Pros /Cons for LCD and Plasma from Wikipedia - in the first post of this thread!! makes for interesting reading - note Backlight bleeding problems with LCD [ame="http://www.ausforces.com/showthread.php?t=2951"]Snick's Hi-def Panel Thread - all the juice.. - AUFHQ - Australian Forces Forums[/ame]
    Last edited by Snickersma; 25-07-2009 at 10:50 AM.

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    Great Balls! AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Chiips's Avatar
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    ^ Have you actually bought one yet??? If not, you've been losing sleep over it for months!

    I like another feature of Samsung LED - it plays DixV, etc... just plus USB in. It might even support .srt .sub files (not sure about later)

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    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    No not yet - I had 4 things to buy this year..

    1) new PC - did that - quad core Blu ray HTPC with 24 inch screen - check!
    2) new laptop - 13 inch Macbook Pro - check!
    3) new HDTV to replace my 40 inch 1080i V series Bravia - still researching
    4) new HD audio 7.1 receiver - still researching - but if i get a Sony TV I'll get a Sony Amp as well - so to use same remote - Bravia Sync etc etc.

    - New Sony Bravia 52 inch XBR9 LCD is coming out in AUS very soon - which will be same as XBR8 - led backlit but with 240hz compared to 100hz... they might be worth the wait.
    - AMP - the Sony 1000 HD receiver looks nice for the price atm.



    Although the newer Denon and Yamaha and Onkyo receivers have all got great reviews. It would only be the brand-compatibility advantage that would make me get the sony .. + all the Sony HD receivers look awesome

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    AUF Leader - The Insta-fractioner MannequinScreams's Avatar
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    I have a problem with my Samsung 26" LCD. Nothing major, just a minor irritation.

    Anything that is plug in through HDMI leaves a faint outline of what was showing when it goes from a colour screen to black.

    For example inbetween menus of cod4 I can see the outline of the running soldier. It doesnt do this on TV or through the AV plugs.

    I've tried using a cheap and nasty HDMI cable and a 60 buck cable and they both do it.

    Any ideas?

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    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    HDMI is a pure digital connection so it might be that you screen cant refresh itself fast enough to deal with all the information.

    Using component leads might fix it but then you lose the advantage of HDMI - sound + video - all digital ..

    See if your LCD has a "game" mode in its display settings - that might calibrate it for games better.

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    AUF Leader - The Insta-fractioner MannequinScreams's Avatar
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    Its always on game mode for HDMI. Its nothing serious. HD looks best when its vibrant colours so it doesnt show this defect during those scenes.

    Im pissed that there's full HD Samsung 32" LCDs for the same price I paid out now. Mine is only 720p/1080i.

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    Great Balls! AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Chiips's Avatar
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    Yeah that's technology for ya. Hence I once I buy something... I stop myself looking at new models and their prices!!!!

    sounds like a real annoying problem but no biggie Otis.

    The older panels have 100Hz (motion flow or whatever) - in my opinion it actually makes things worse (wacthing sports - fuzzier).
    New panels have 200Hz thingy.... some reports are saying it's better turned off or on low?? 240Hz?? that's not for Australia is it?

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  29. #29
    Great Balls! AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Chiips's Avatar
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    at the rate you're going with your new telly snicks, you'll prolly end up with an OLED

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  30. #30
    AUF Leader & Founder AUF Full Member - Ten F*&$#%kin Thousand Muthas!! (10,000+) Snickersma's Avatar
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    Mmm yeah the aussie version will probably be 200hz..

    My current screen is only 1080i - but for 40 inch and below - unless your sitting less than a 1.5 metres away from it its literally physically impossible to see any difference. This is a verified scientific fact LOL

    Here is a good guide to distance.

    http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

    @ yeah but OLED will be at least 3 years away for a decent size and reeeeeaallly expensive.

    But knowing my luck Samsung and others will begin rolling out 42 inch OLED screens mid next year! As suggested here!! http://hdtvorg.co.uk/news/articles/2007103101.htm
    Last edited by Snickersma; 25-07-2009 at 12:00 PM.

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